What would you change if the NT650 came back?

[Blade_Zero]

I know this has been touched on in another thread, but I thought I would start a spefic thread and see if it gets more input.

So here are my thoughts.
Quality suspension, 840cc 52 degree 4 valve fuel injected motor in medium state of tune, close ratio 6 speed gearbox. Under seat exhaust. Rear hugger fender. Lenac brake kit (1 rotar). Longer radiator that's narrower than frame, with detent for oil cooler. 5 gal petrol tank with stock profile, vacum fuel pump. Generic wheel dimensions. Adjustable light weight rearsets. Light weight aluminum clip ons, chain & sprockets.
LCD speedo if it's lighter. Mounting point for steering damper.

Loose the centre stand but keep it's mounting points, loose the seat lock, grab handles, and folding cargo hooks. Install mini rear blinkers. Polished SSSA, internally routed rear brakline, polished aluminum chainguard similar to Rob Z's except it extends back to the frame, giving the illusion of the chain being routed through the swingarm, moto GP style. Bros trim looks nicer.

Everything else would be stock.

Blade

[zooom]

well....touchy places to opinionate apon in a class now that has quite a market share moreso than when the Hawk came to market 18 years ago...now you'll have the SV which is pretty much the Marque at which you should consider to aim at most (which is rumoured to have a bump in its displacement soon!)...and coming soon stateside are the Monster 695's....the Cagiva Raptor overseas is a good bike....as well as Kawasaki's new ER6 chassis....so your target focus is to get light and cheap and powerful in order to key up to more success.....not too powerful for the budget or the beginner...but enough that it will still be competative in club racing circuits where you can see some of these models really shine!...

so my list would start at going fuel injected with a Marelli system(unfortunately Honda would probably insist on some sort of V-Tec technology to be implemented)....go with a 4 valve watercooled plant under 700CC's(maybe this would be the opprtune time to go with a small bore stroker style V4 configuration based apon the VFR with a big bang type injection system)....standardized swingarm configuration with allowance for a 5.5 inch wide rim( as much as I like the very trick and slick Single Sided Swingarm configuration,it is more expensive to manufacture and supply and has more torsional flexibility than a conventional design and part of the object lesson here would be to keep it still marketable to the masses)...USD forks with similar rake and trail dimensions to current models...and I think dual front 4 pot brakes on the front would be a healthy thing to have aboard!....all this and at least a 3.5-4 gallon tank!....don't want to be too big and have the extra weight to be sloshing around....and as much as a high mount exhaust might be trick....with emissions standards being the way they are...with catalyzers and all....unless you want a very bladderlike unsightly catalyzer hanging on the underside like the current Single Sided Swingarm high mount exhaust Ducati's for example....I think a low slung multi baffled integrated catalyzer/muffler combo mounted and routed in a similar fashion to the Buells to keep more mass down lower would be key!....these are just a few things that I can think of!

[Blade_Zero]

That's interesting Zoom, an inverse approach to me. I forgot to say, Honda should not build the Hawk down to the median price point, rather make it the sweetest handling mid size twin on the market, it has the dynamics to support this. In short keep it a niche product.

Blade

[zooom]

if they were to build it to be a Niche bike like you are suggesting and not a median price point bike....then you'll have dealers end up with a bunch of dust collecting niche market machines not worth in the eyes of the public what they are asking for them...point...the Honda 599 and 919....great bikes...awesome bikes to a degree....bulletproof..proven...tried and true.....but in the naked class...they seem to always come in last in every way except comfort....so you have to be careful...dealers don't like to sit on special bikes because generally speaking....alot of dealers buy their stock outright instead of through floorplan like car dealerships do with cars!....they end up getting better incentives in the back end by doing so...from what I understand...anyway,the point is to make something that sells and sells well...the Hawk was an awesome machine that was waaaay ahead of the curve and before its time!

[Blade_Zero]

They would only gather dust if they were produced in high volume, the Italians deliberately maintain low unit volume for this very reason. Leave the vanilla segment to the SV650, it's allready established itself there.

[USMCHAWKGT]

That's interesting Zoom, an inverse approach to me. I forgot to say, Honda should not build the Hawk down to the median price point, rather make it the sweetest handling mid size twin on the market, it has the dynamics to support this. In short keep it a niche product.

Blade

Isn't that what killed off the Hawk in the first place? It sat in a showroom with the CBR which was double the Bhp for just $500 more. The median price point is, I think what made it so popular w/ weekend racers and track dayers, and why the SV is so popular. An average joe can afford it and have some $$ to turn it into something pretty cool. Just look at the Bimota, $$$$ for a decent track bike w/ a ho-hum air-cooled ducati engine, don't think they will get much volume with that one...

[Makenzie71]

hmmm...here's what I wrote about my dream-idea of a Factory backed GS500...basically apply the same stuff:

Now...screw this talk of an updated model...lets talk about a Factory R varient of what we've currently got:

Minimum....

Ohlins 41mm inverted cartridge forks
Ohlins 3-way rear (with a quick lock-n-release mechanism to allow for spring changes)
Ohlins adjustable steering damper

Lightweight Marchesini 5.5" rear wheel, 170/55 rubber
Lightweight Marchesini 2.75" front wheel, 120/60 rubber

Dual 320mm Brembo wavies up front with 4-pot radial calipers
240mm Brembo wavie in back with standard 2-pot caliper
~OR single 360mm perimeter disk with an 8-pot Brmbo caliper up front

Carbon fiber swingarm
Carbon fiber 5 gallon tank
Carbon fiber fairings and tail (offered from factory as monoposto/biposto varients)

Annodized billet rear wheel adjusters
6-way adjustable rearsets
Full adjustable brake/clutch levers (like on the GSVR)
4-way adjustable clip-ons
Adjustable triple clamps
Adjustable front axle

Standard GS block bored out to 498cc
11:1 pistons
5 valve, dual spark head
Yoshimura cams
Lightened, honed and balanced crank shaft
Dry clutch
Larger oil pan and stronger pump
2X10X6 oil cooler
Suzuki's variety of EFI...including a yosh-box gadget
~40mm throttle bodies
~298cc injectors
~Digital ignition
Center-feed Ram air (like gen-1 R6's...huge scoop right in the middle of the nose)
52mm headers feeding to a 60mm midpipe, dumping through a titanium 2.25 liter muffler...either hanging off the side or routed through the swingarm and under the tail

K5 SV1000S speedometer/tach assembly
Same steel frame...but a removable subframe would be nice

...I can think of more but I'm getting a hard on.

[USMCHAWKGT]

Re: What would you change if the NT650 came back?

[quote="Blade_Zero"]I know this has been touched on in another thread, but I thought I would start a spefic thread and see if it gets more input.

looks like bmw might have come closest to a modern Hawk: F800 r, if they can keep the weight down, it could get interesting. Belt drive would be nice too, looks like ssa and conventional forks...[/img]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/jpeg/462/12221847.jpeg

[zooom]

Re: What would you change if the NT650 came back?

[quote="USMCHAWKGT"]

I know this has been touched on in another thread, but I thought I would start a spefic thread and see if it gets more input.

looks like bmw might have come closest to a modern Hawk: F800 r, if they can keep the weight down, it could get interesting. Belt drive would be nice too, looks like ssa and conventional forks...[/img]

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/jpeg/462/12221847.jpeg

well...you can get reviews of the 800S for starters here....

http://www.raptorsandrockets.com/raptorama.html

and go about a 1/4 of the way down for a review of it ridden...and then this a quote from the news section there when asked about the "R"...

In our recent interview with Dr. Herbert Diess, the Director of BMW Motorrad, he makes it very clear that BMW is not working on a MotoGP prototype. Picture of Dr. Diess courtesy of BMW. Other pictures are used for illustration purposes only. Here are some extracts from that interview: Dr. Diess on 800cc MotoGP prototype: There will definitely be no MotoGP prototype – that is MCN speculation without any basis in fact. And: BMW Motorrad is not developing any MotoGP prototypes. BMW further emphasises that the bike shown in various magazines on racetracks are purely a "technology bearer" to test new BMW features under extreme riding conditions.

Dr. Diess on BMW HP models: Q: Will you in the future launch High Power versions in all your model series? For instance, could we see a K1200S HP, R1200S HP, F800S HP and so on in the future? If not, what is the plan? A: We can imagine another HP model in the future. But initially we will be concentrating on the 2-cylinder flat twin. R&R comment: This hints at a R1200S HP as our illustration shows.

Dr. Diess on BMW F800R and F800GS: The R model: Yes, we’re looking into it. At the moment we don’t wish to say anything else about the engine and the design. R&R comment: This confirms there will be a F800R. The GS model: We can certainly imagine a F800 GS. The F 650 GS will still be in our sales range in 2007.

[Goshawk]

When I imagine a reborn Hawk I see a new competitor to the middle weight arena from a "Honda practical" point of view?

Looking at the 599 and 919 as recent lessons, the American public doesn't seem to be attracted to naked, parts-bike in-line 4-cylinders. The in-line crowd wants their faired speed bikes. It's majority is not a sophisticated crowd, which prefers a contest of performance stats and racy looks. Just look how often they upgrade to the latest and greatest that most can only dream of getting 9/10ths. out of. The Hawk has always been about finess and versatility, combined with a Gran Prix chassis, not raw power. Why try to finess them and fragment that market?

Honda is attracted to parts-bin bikes. I say offer two, an entry level/price point GT and a race/performance oriented GT-R. Both have the same foundation, with the upgraded parts added at the whim of Honda USA to meet market demand. EPA certification for one version is good for both versions.

How about the XRV750 engine as a starting point. Give it the same improvements as the Deauville (4-valve head, starter, fuel injection, etc.) optimized for the larger displacement. 6-speed trans. Throw in some CBR tech to reduce weight and friction. Better regulator/rectifier please! I'd like to say that they could overcome the crank issues, but that's architecture related. Judging from the reluctance to retire the 52-degree twin and it's continued development, a whole new powerplant is unlikely to be seen from a once bitten, twice shy Honda.

Update RC-31 frame and swing-arm, not a must since the current chassis is far beyond anything else in the class (or other classes for that matter), but since you are revamping the original, why not use the best in modern tech. Cheaper capable suspension is okay, we've been able to get past that one easily enough. Keep the subframe detachable, but fab it in steel on the GT, aluminium on the GT-R. Modern rubber and sizes. 3.5x17 and up to 6.0x17. Look to the 599 for a baseline GT's front end, CBR600RR for the upscale faired GT-R scoot.

Update dash, speedo off the crank. Updated plastic. 5-gallon fuel tank is a must. Bosses on the frame for fairing mounts. Parts bin LED lighting and 599 headlight and optional CB919 windscreen for the GT. Optional centerstand. Use your imagination for accessories...

You get the idea. Correct the original Hawk GT's shortcommings, build on it's strengths, and harvest the reputation and consumer following the original has already built.

With gas prices as they are, motorcycle and scooter sales are through the roof, and the majority of the new market are not looking for the fastest kid on the block. Just look at Vespa's sales, $6700 250cc scooters are impossible to keep in stock. A new Hawk GT might be the next step when the scooter riders are ready to move up, but not into the speed scene.

Just my $0.02 worth.

-Pete

1989 Stealth Hawk
1989 Goshawk

[Biscuit]

I'm leaning more towards Gos's .02 cents, rather than Mack's .02 cents. While Mack certainly comes up with an instadrool package, the price on that baby would be sky high! Refine the twin (I'm still very angry at Honda for discontinuing the V Twin line they had) that's in there, maybe bump it up in cc's a tad. Better front end, better rear shock, 919 headlight is fine, but I'd rather see something like the S3's. Not exactly like it mind you, but something along those lines. So really the frame and subframe can stay, I think they work fine, but my opinion isn't as educated as some. Definately updated rims just so I can have a speedo that works right!

What's the deal with the undertail exhaust? I think Buell's got the way better idea by putting it all on the bottom. It looks sharp, improves the CG and is easy to get to. I'm all for a bike that isn't a royal pain in my crack to work on. With the exception of a badly placed spark plug configuration one of the many delights of the Hawk is the fact that I can tear it down and work on it easily.

[Necro-99]

These are all great ideas... but is anyone at Honda listening? Has anyone considered starting a petition to get Honda's attention? Or maybe a website, like www.bringbackthehawkgt.com?

It's certainly a crowded market now... SV650, Ninja 650R, this new BMW 800 twin, M620, etc. But it cannot be denied that the 599 is a flop. Honda should ditch it in favor of a new Hawk GT.