Steering with the rear

[isaac]

I know these bikes aren't the most powerful out there, but I have to approach the topic. Has anybody mastered steering with the rear on a Hawk? How does the balance feel?

So far on the few times I've forced the issue on a hard low speed lean (second gear usually) it'll slide the rear a little with no problems, then just come back in line on its own. I know that stability can be a function of rotating inertia (gyroscopic stabilization), tire choice, and suspension setup too.

Just wondering if anybody's gotten the hang of it, or if they've been bitten hard.

[isaac]

So, about that lurking thread I put up...yeah...

[Doc]

I have an answer I just have to get some time..

[nt650hawk]

Every time I get the rear to come out a bit I usually end up on the ground. Although the last couple of times my foot slipped off the foot peg and I bent it back with my Achilles.

Try fitting a boot between that for a downshift and finishing the race in 6th, not much fun. I had a big black and blue for a while

[Doc]

I was reading somewhere about actually steering with the rear, Something about how if you kept that in your mind you would corner better.

I have been trying to find it to share...

If you think about it, It does make some sense.

[isaac]

Well it helps point the bike inward a little more I suppose but you're on the total razor's edge between control and hitting the ground. Therein lies the game. I only have the balls to try this in low speed (20-30mph) corners in 2nd gear because I have some gyroscopic force to help me recover. I'm also not sure if the engine has enough power to do it at higher speeds anyway, not to mention the danger being magnified at higher speeds.

[Doc]

I am not talking about sliding the rear but actually using your lean angles to "steer" with the rear.

I think it is more a mindset than actual steering.

I think of it this way, If I were using a unicycle I would steer with what is under my butt, kinda the same concept.... I think.

[Blade_Zero]

I'm no track GOD but do some back road blasting. The reasoning behind steering with the rear is to get the front and rear wheels in line sooner so you can get on the power earlier. It is analogous to the application the of hand brake in rally driving. Depending on whether it is a right or left corner the rear can be made to slide or pivot around the front wheel, by either application of the rear brake or droping a gear too early.
Your method is the most risky as you are using lean angle to reduce the contact patch to the extent you lose traction and slide. The first two methods should be executed at the least nesseccary lean angle otherwise there is no point, a deeper lean angle will preclude application of throttle. I have done this by accident when blasting, along with getting on the power too early, it's kinda fun.

[dagus]

Are we talking like, drift racing? Except on two wheels?!? Does this concept actually work outside of Hollywood?

Holy shit. I'm not sure I ever want to be that good.

[Blade_Zero]

Yes it looks a bit like drift style, the usual practicioners of it originate from a motorcross background, they're comfortable with a loose style/setup. It does look dramatic but takes it's tool on the rear tyre and clutch.

[isaac]

Damn that's cool stuff right there! I didn't know they'd actually stab the rear brake a bit near the corner exit. It seems counterintuitive, but if it points the bike in the right direction to go WOT faster it makes sense.

I guess what I was talking about was more stylish. I mean I've seen it happen in racing plenty of times, but I guess the power on, almost full lean type of oversteer is just accidental more than anything.

It seems to me that dropping a gear too early would be the most risky though, just based on the engine braking making the rear wheel hop a little which is intermittent traction loss instead of consistent. How can it work so well?

[Blade_Zero]

What I described as droping a gear too early meaning, early in the RPM's, e.g. your in third gear at 4k or 5k RPM you snick into 2nd as you hit the apex, the rev counter shoots up, the gearbox makes a zizzz type of sound, and the rear wheel spins up so fast it loses traction and slides out, then you get on the power.
If you get it wrong you could over-rev the engine though. As I said I have only done this by accident but the pro's use it for right corners, the rear brake lever being unavailable to the rider at this juncture.

With regard to getting on the power too early and looking cool, even the pro's get it wrong sometimes, giving it too much and either highside or lowside themselves. Little slides are fun though.

[brewsy]

Hi all,
Dont know if youve seen it but this is pretty much de rigeur in any SuperMoto race.
It has to be done when you are hard on the brakes so that there is not much weight on the rear tyre. Believe it or not but it seems easier the faster you go (so says my mate) and basically its a combination of rear brake, gear shifting and bod postitioning.
Doc is right in that you come barrelling into the corner in a high gear say 5th, get on the brakes HARD, bash it down to 2nd and if you havent got a slipper clutch modulate the clutch together with a touch of back brake to get the rear sliding. The idea is that the rear wheel is still rotating but much slower than the front. This will cause the rear to slide out sideways and at a point chosen by the rider (usually the apex of the corner) the rider has both wheels lined up and can simply gas it out of the corner. If you get it wrong and actually lock up the rear wheel thats when things go rapidly wrong and you will usually go down (or over) when it starts spinning again!!
I'm not sure if its faster personally as if you watch roadracing the faster guys pretty much always are in line most of the time. Of course there are times they back it in i.e. a block pass or if the rear tyre is going away but they obviously have WAY more skill than me and can choose how they want to play it. In SM that seems to be the way to go but as I couldnt slide I would often do a knee down style on the tarmac corners as that was what I felt was more comfortable for me and therefore meant I was faster, used to race in the UK BTW but was crap!!!

Will try to dig out a picture of my mate Si who used to race with me and is an Instructor at the UK version of the California SuperBike School

[Doc]

I will have to reread my books and find the article so I can explain this better.

I am not talking about sliding the rear (like a dirt bike, or using brakes)

Or even POWER sliding the rear (coming out of a corner)

I am talking about thinking of the rear like you do your front, going into a corner and paying attention to the line the rear wheel is taking more than the front... this way you can "feel" it better and get more power to the rear sooner...

Is anyone understanding me?

[brewsy]

Just though I'd pop a piccy of my mate on his HusaBerg....

http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r49/marcbrewster/Si_Berg.jpg

We both used to ride them, though a) he was/is a much better rider than me and b) he also had faster bikes. I was on a 501 he was on a big boys 650!!